建议说服某人避免表格布局 [英] advice re convincing someone to avoid table layouts
问题描述
我远离CSS专家，但我所看到的我非常喜欢&我爱
保持内容&风格分开。我也讨厌表格布局
产生错综复杂的代码。
然而当被问及为什么要使用CSS而不是表格时，
特别是当桌子工作时浏览器对CSS的支持可能很狡猾，特别是在IE浏览器中，我通常无法想出一个简洁的&令人信服的
论点：/
我和大学的一位讲师一直在进行长时间的讨论
&到目前为止，我还没有说服他对桌面布局不那么满意。
有人可以帮忙吗？
我需要的东西我可以和他谈谈，或者告诉他，但是他不会要求他离开&花一个小时或更长时间阅读或调查，因为我怀疑他会因为我对他说的话而烦恼，iyswim？
-
Michael
mrozatukgatewaydotne t
Michael Rozdoba写道：
我远离CSS专家，但我所看到的我非常喜欢&我喜欢
保持内容和风格分开。我也讨厌表格布局的方式
产生复杂的庞大代码。
然而当被问及为什么要使用CSS而不是表格时，
尤其是当表格工作时浏览器对CSS的支持可能很狡猾，特别是在IE浏览器中，我通常都没有想出一个简洁的&令人信服
论证：/
我和大学的讲师一直在进行长时间的讨论
&到目前为止，我还没有说服他对桌面布局不那么满意。
任何人都可以帮忙吗？
我需要一些我可以和他谈谈的东西，或者告诉他，但不会要求他离开&花一个小时或更长时间阅读或调查，因为我怀疑他是否会因为我对他说的话而烦恼，iyswim？
Do你知道这本书用Web标准设计吗？作者：Jeffrey Zeldman？
（好吧，当我读到它时，我有点失望，因为我希望阅读更多
关于技术细节...）前半部分非常适合被剥夺
out并交给经理人或者需要确信CSS设计的好处b $ b $
Zeldman可以解释一些比我更好的关键：
- 可维护性
- 可访问性
- 搜索引擎优化
- 支持不寻常或未来的浏览器和设备
- ...
我最喜欢的一个引用（好吧，从我的记忆中，所以不是完全引用）：
设计可访问的网站（例如盲人）很重要，因为
有一个盲人访问者，没有人想要惹恼：googlebot。
-
Benjamin Niemann
电子邮件：pink at odahoda dot de
WWW：< a rel =nofollowhref =http://www.odahoda.de/target =_ blank > http://www.odahoda.de/
Benjamin Niemann写道：
你知道吗？书使用Web标准设计杰弗里泽尔德曼？
No.
（好吧，当我读到它时，我有点失望，因为我希望阅读更多关于技术细节的信息。 。）前半部分非常适合被扯掉并交给经理人或者需要确信CSS设计的好处。
Zeldman可以解释的一些关键比我更好：
- 可维护性
我已经说过了。他似乎并不相信。
- 可达性
这个显然很重要&我试图争辩这个案子，但是
也许我只是做得不好 - 除了深深嵌套的
表，他不会'无论如何，他似乎总是提倡，他似乎认为，表格不应该对可访问性造成任何问题 - 例如，因为内容的布局很长它将被阅读的顺序，基于演讲的
浏览器不会有问题。
- 搜索引擎优化
我已经提到了，但可以推动它更多。
- 支持不寻常或未来的浏览器和设备
再次，我提到了前者，但收效甚微。 - ...
我最喜欢的一句话（嗯，从我的记忆中，所以没有完全引用）：
设计无障碍网站（例如盲人）很重要，因为
有一个盲人访客，没有人想要惹恼：googlebot"。
是的，也试过那个。我认为回复是关于辅助功能
以上：/
我会看看能不能找到这本书的副本，谢谢。 />
-
Michael
mrozatukgatewaydotne t
On Sun，3月20日2005 15:06:18 +0000，Michael Rozdoba< mr ** @ nowhere.invalid>写道：
Benjamin Niemann写道：
[很多有效论据;到目前为止，似乎没有一个对OP有效]
是的，也试过那个。我认为响应与上面的可访问性相同：/
我会看到我是否能找到该书的副本，谢谢。
为什么不创建自己的案例研究情况：建立一个包含一些不错的
内容的页面。使用有效的结构和语义标记创建它，并使用CSS设计
外观。知道什么？给那一页多个样式表
显示你的易维护性（快速改变外观）。然后
获取相同的内容并将其放在表格页面中。设计时采用了什么？b $ b技术（我不知道因为我不做表格布局），可能
只有一两个非常相似的布局可能。
- 触发谷歌的行踪页面并等待一段时间，坐下来，看看谁是谁b $ b获胜。
- 联系一位老人女士，你知道谁上网，并查明她是否b
在另一页上找到一个更舒适的导航。
- Challange the Thomas让你很难到重新设计任一页面，并且
诚实地了解专业人士和骗子。
- 与Lynx中的页面一起玩，找出最容易导航的内容。
等等。要有创意。如果口头辩论似乎没有登陆甲板，请尝试真实的
证据。
-
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I''m far from a CSS expert, but what I see of it I really like & I love
keeping content & style separate. I also hate the way table layout
produces convoluted bulky code.
However when asked why one should use CSS rather than tables,
particularly when tables work & browser support of CSS can be dodgy,
especially in IE, I usually fail to come up with a concise & convincing
argument :/
I''ve been having this long running discussion with a lecturer at college
& so far I''ve not convinced him to be less content with table layout.
Can anyone help?
I need something I can talk to him about, or show him, but which won''t
require he go off & spend an hour or more reading or looking into, as I
doubt he''d bother on the strength of what I''ve said to him, iyswim?
--
Michael
m r o z a t u k g a t e w a y d o t n e t
Michael Rozdoba wrote:
I''m far from a CSS expert, but what I see of it I really like & I love
keeping content & style separate. I also hate the way table layout
produces convoluted bulky code.
However when asked why one should use CSS rather than tables,
particularly when tables work & browser support of CSS can be dodgy,
especially in IE, I usually fail to come up with a concise & convincing
argument :/
I''ve been having this long running discussion with a lecturer at college
& so far I''ve not convinced him to be less content with table layout.
Can anyone help?
I need something I can talk to him about, or show him, but which won''t
require he go off & spend an hour or more reading or looking into, as I
doubt he''d bother on the strength of what I''ve said to him, iyswim?
Do you know the book "Designing with Web Standards" by Jeffrey Zeldman?
(Well, I was a bit disappointed when I read it, because I hoped to read more
about technical details...) The first halve of is well suited to be ripped
out and handed to manager folks or who ever needs to be convinced of the
benefits of CSS design.
Some keys that Zeldman can explain much better than I could:
- Maintainablity
- Accessability
- Search engine optimization
- Support for unusual or future browsers and devices
- ...
One quote that I liked most (well, from my memory, so not exactly quoted):
"designing accessible websites (e.g. to blind people) is important, because
there is one blind visitor that nobody want to piss off: googlebot".
--
Benjamin Niemann
Email: pink at odahoda dot de
WWW: http://www.odahoda.de/
Benjamin Niemann wrote:
Do you know the book "Designing with Web Standards" by Jeffrey Zeldman?
No.
(Well, I was a bit disappointed when I read it, because I hoped to read more
about technical details...) The first halve of is well suited to be ripped
out and handed to manager folks or who ever needs to be convinced of the
benefits of CSS design.
Some keys that Zeldman can explain much better than I could:
- Maintainablity
I''ve stated that. He didn''t seem convinced.
- Accessability
This one is obviously important & I''ve tried to argue the case, but
maybe I just didn''t do a good job - with the exception of deeply nested
tables which he wouldn''t advocate generally anyway, he seemed to think,
aiui, that tables shouldn''t pose a problem to accessibility - eg as long
as content is laid out in the order it would be read, a speech based
browser wouldn''t have a problem.
- Search engine optimization
I''ve mentioned that, but could push it more.
- Support for unusual or future browsers and devices
Again, I have mentioned the former, but with little success. - ...
One quote that I liked most (well, from my memory, so not exactly quoted):
"designing accessible websites (e.g. to blind people) is important, because
there is one blind visitor that nobody want to piss off: googlebot".
Yup, tried that one too. I think the response was as for accessibility
above :/
I''ll see if I can find a copy of the book, thanks.
--
Michael
m r o z a t u k g a t e w a y d o t n e t
On Sun, 20 Mar 2005 15:06:18 +0000, Michael Rozdoba <mr**@nowhere.invalid> wrote:
Benjamin Niemann wrote:
[ a lot of valid arguments; none of which seemed to have worked for OP so far ]
Yup, tried that one too. I think the response was as for accessibility above :/
I''ll see if I can find a copy of the book, thanks.
Why don''t you create your own case study situation: Put up a page with some nice
content. Create it with valid structural and semantical markup and design the
look and feel with CSS. Know what? Give that one page several stylesheets to
show your point of ease of maintainability (fast change of look possible). Then
take the same content and put it in a tables page. Design with what ever
technique it takes (I wouldn''t know since I don''t do table for layout), probably
only one or two very similar layouts possible.
- Trigger Google for the pages whereabouts and wait a while, sit back, see who
wins.
- Contact that one elderly lady you know who surfs the net, and find out if she
finds one over the other page more comfortable navigating.
- Challange the Thomas that gives you a hard time to redesign either page, and
be honest about the pro''s and con''s.
- Play with the pages in Lynx to find out what is easiest to navigate.
et cetera Be creative. If verbal arguments don''t seem to land on deck, try real
evidence.
--
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